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Fact is Dave that we're a team and together we get a result that people like.
Also as TB will tell you, human beings are hopelessly unreliable judges/witnesses, so just as every engineer does, even in audio and even if his company's PR dept spouts mealy mouthed drivel about listening to resistors or whatever, Martin relies on Maths, measurement, help from the transducer manufacturers to design them and me to get the result evaluated and if necessary suggest some adjustment..
Fact is Dave that we're a team and together we get a result that people like.
Also as TB will tell you, human beings are hopelessly unreliable judges/witnesses, so just as every engineer does, even in audio and even if his company's PR dept spouts mealy mouthed drivel about listening to resistors or whatever, Martin relies on Maths, measurement, help from the transducer manufacturers to design them and me to get the result evaluated and if necessary suggest some adjustment..
I agree Ash, once you cross the line into subjectively designing the amp you step away from "hi fi" and step into expensive boutique hi end warning the customers they will "come on song" after 100 hours burn in!
I've recommended that Atticus do 700 hours of Justin Bieber, 350 of Susan Boyle and 25 of Canibal Corpe's Meat Hook Sodomy to run his ADM40s in and Chris thought some Justice Yeldham might be the icing on the cake.
Last I heard he'd done 7 hours of Bieber and was deteriorating fast, allegedly. 
Edit: as my original comment is open to misinterpretation I withdraw it. I can understand that Martin will have been too busy to sit down and actually enjoy listening to the final product rather than building and assessing it. It also sounds as if the final version is better than the prototypes, which is good news for everyone.
Last edited by dBerriff (2012-05-06 07:27:12)
Reads to me like someone with the brains to do the design and engineering, read the measurements and understand them, tweak until they were right etc etc decided that other people were better equipped to do the aural testing.
I can't see how that's in any way a problem, and I think Spacey is being rather disingenuous and unfair.
I can see a loose analogy in football management. Some of the best managers in the world were less than glorious footballers (Mourinho springs to mind). It doesn't take away from their management skills and they let the better footballers get on with their job.
So once the final product is made, Martin sat down and listened to the results of his engineering expertise and others critical listening expertise, and voila!
Stupid argument over a non-issue if you ask me.
Agree with fr0g (except for the football analogy thing where I am not qualified to judge as I know less than dirt about the subject).
Scenario 1: non-engineering type designs speakers, then tweaks to heart's content by listening, adjusting components, fine tuning it to how he/she likes it (or imagines his/her customers like it). Tweaks dependant upon market conditions, personal mood, state of bowels, etc.
Scenario 2: qualified engineer gets the maths and science right, cutting out any extraneous nonsense and hands over to experienced listeners to judge results.
On the whole, I'd prefer to go with Scenario 2 and leave 1 to the audiophools.
PS Happy to own up that I know zero about architecture as well.
Last edited by shenzi (2012-05-06 08:04:40)
Genius post Frog!
Martin's hearing is excellent, but it's enough of a responsibility to design them and put them into production, so having someone else to final check lightens the load a bit.
My analogy is Jekyl and Hyde.... a scientist who tastes the medicine as he goes and ultimately creates a monster!
I'm listening to my ADMs now and they sound incredible, whatever Mart and Ash are doing in that mad scientists headquarters, please keep it up, cos boy does it work 
I have a group of friends some professional sound people or ex BBC and others just experienced listeners who I know will quickly highlight any issues.
They visit, one at a time, with their own material and they comment.
As far as the design goes, LS Design is a leading design consultancy and they manufacture and test AVI electronics for us, so Martin has to go through the assembly and test procedure with them. There are more than enough expert engineers involved to ensure perfection.
Ash
I think they call it team work and SYNERGY !
So how do your friends assess sound quality and play their music on your kit?
Speaking as one of the ones who listened to an early version of the new ADM9s, it wasn't too hard. I had music I was familiar with, plus I attend concerts and have some idea of how an orchestra sounds (I don't listen to any electronic music). The music is subjective but listening for
- the sound of human voice
- the sound of a particular instrument
- what the system does when the music goes from one instrument to the rest of the band joining in
- image stability
is reliable. I was listening to the system in unfamiliar surroundings but otherwise, the reference point of 'does it sound real' was good enough. I don't usually listen to a system to find out how nice it sounds. I want to know how real it sounds, insofar as I can judge (given how short-term audio memory can be).
Judging from the other people Ash uses, most of them appear to come from a similar starting point - live, un-amplified music - and that makes assessment more reliable.
Last edited by shenzi (2012-05-06 17:30:44)
Spot on Shenzi and it supports what WR and RB are saying, that voice and piano are exceptionally convincing.
There can't really be any other way of evaluating speakers than by using acoustic music and natural sound, because otherwise you have no reference.
Electronically created music might be terrific, but what is it supposed to sound like?
Ash
Just for kicks I had a quick look a the AVI thread on PFM. 
I managed to get through about a page and a half before thinking to myself "Why am I wasting my life reading this nonsensical bollocks" and promised myself never to visit that place again!
There's some knowledgeable and interesting posters on there but on the AVI threads the usual party of commenters really need to grow up.
To be fair I didn't actually look at anything else on PFM so maybe that thread painted it in a bad light.
Last edited by steve_1979 (2012-05-06 20:03:35)
Well I'm glad you're all having fun, but what of people coming to this thread for the ADM40 review?
Well I'm glad you're all having fun, but what of people coming to this thread for the ADM40 review?
Agree. This isn't going to be a useful review thread at this rate, Perhaps split and move the vigorous discussion to off-topic.
I've removed as much of the distractions as I can and I apologise to anyone who's posts have gone.
So many threads on so many forums are derailed by this sort of thing, that I realise now that I should have acted yesterday.
Spacey is not banned yet, but will be if there's one more silly post.
Ash
Just ban him, I would 
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