Why are we falling for the great vinyl scam?
#76
I don't keep up with the vinyl vs digital debate (nonsense) these days but I'm not sure how many (sane) folk would claim (to quote WinterRacer) "turntables are intrinsically better than digital from a pure SQ PoV". Many claim to "prefer" the sound of vinyl and the reasons for this are probably many and varied. There is the famous "vinyl warmth" which I have never quite got. Some LPs may be also be better mastered than their digital counterparts and so on.....

Personally, the reason vinyl is my preferred format probably stems from the tactile nature of it, the artwork, the equipment used to play it, the more "immersive" experience and the nostalgia. Regarding the nostagia, I was brought up with records and often hated them, but that was in the days before RCMs, etc. For me, playing music is not just about SQ. "Digging" for used vinyl in shops or at record fairs is an experience whereas streaming or downloading (for me, at least) is not. A record collection says something about you (in my case "what a cool dude") whereas seldom will anyone ever ask you what's on your phone.
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#77
I hope I am never judged by my record collection. I guess Tidal subscribers consider themselves superior to the Spotify masses and the Apple acolytes.  Big Grin
Just one of over 7 billion homo sapiens. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
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#78
(2017-05-19, 17:05:24):DAshley James Wrote: I'm sure Arthur would be happy with vinyl in most forms but a record player.

Big Grin

Wait till you see the high def photos gents...
1 - MacBook Pro/iPad air 2/ATV/Panasonic 58" telly/AVI DM10s.
2 - Yamaha DSP-800/ Adam Audio Compacts
3 - Lexicon/MXF900/AVI Trios.  

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#79
(2017-05-19, 20:47:21)Phil Bishop Wrote: There is the famous "vinyl warmth" which I have never quite got.

When you had the godawful Rega Exact cartridges, you had 'added warmth' by the effin' bucket-load... There's a massive suckout in the lower hf which we tend to hear as added weight rather than dullness - I get the same from an un-corrected Shure V15 T2 I have here, which is delightful otherwise. It exhibited up to 5db drop in the high frequencies and was widely commented on at the time. This was eliminated in the V15 III which people didn't always like as much as it was flat in the often troublesome speaker crossover region.

I can't help preferring the Ortofon 2M way of doing things. The 2M Bronze for example has a great diamond which keeps surface noise effects in the background and the balance seems fundamentally neutral and none of the slight blandness of the DL110 or 10XV for example. The Shure 97XE you had on the Thorens is also pretty benign, despite the diamond fit and profile being so basic. Bull.ed wasn't so keen on the 2M Blue I remember, yet I regularly use its predecessor (520mk2) and it's great and not lacking in sparkle when it should be there.
Speak the truth in humility to all people; Only then can you be a true man and free of your chains
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#80
"I wonder how well a 'vinyl' app would sell on the AppStore, so that you could introduce all the unecessary distortion and 'warmth' you like, via your apple device, without the hassle of cluttering up your living room with a pile of nostalgic and expensive crap?

You could have a massive list of variable components at your disposal, without the hassle or cost, maybe the app could cost, say, £599 to justify it's heritage?

Thinking about selling my oven and building a permanent fire in my garden.. Be loads more hassle cooking my dinner, but real fire.....

Think I'll sell my washing machine and buy a mangle while I'm at it!!!!
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#81
We just use the log burning stove, real fire and you can cook on it.

Mnick
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#82
(2017-05-20, 19:50:27)true-blue Wrote: "I wonder how well a 'vinyl' app would sell on the AppStore, so that you could introduce all the unecessary distortion and 'warmth' you like, via your apple device, without the hassle of cluttering up your living room with a pile of nostalgic and expensive crap?

Already a thing, and free

https://play.google.com/store/apps/detai...ayer&hl=en

I'm sure there's similar for iOS...
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#83
Also free:

http://www.izotope.com/en/products/creat...vinyl.html

You may need to add some EQ for that elusive warmth, unless the Year setting gives you what you want. Perhaps some multiband compression to simulate the RIAA equalisation that renders the medium non-linear. Simple.
Just one of over 7 billion homo sapiens. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
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#84
Gents... I was joking, if I wanted to degrade sound quality I could stick cotton wool in my ears etc!
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#85
Do it properly and listen to BBC Radio 1.  Angry
Just one of over 7 billion homo sapiens. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
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#86
(2017-05-20, 21:07:06)dBerriff Wrote: Also free:

http://www.izotope.com/en/products/creat...vinyl.html

You may need to add some EQ for that elusive warmth, unless the Year setting gives you what you want. Perhaps some multiband compression to simulate the RIAA equalisation that renders the medium non-linear. Simple.

Er - the RIAA equalisation should be perfectly linear and have no effect on SQ if done accurately. It's a simple frequency response modification done pre pressing and reversed on replay in order to reduce the disc surface noise. The (unintentional) non-linearities are all produced in the mechanical system.
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#87
The best vinyl turntable 'systems' from stylus to phono stage (which don't have to be expensive either), DON'T add warmth and neither do they mess around with surface noise and ticks/plops. As Phil has said many times, a serious vinyl collector needs a proper record cleaning machine too, but it's all part of the fun!

Poster true-blue here has, I feel, completely missed the point! HiFi is a hobby, music enjoyment is not, in the same way that classic car restoration and collecting is a hobby, but 'good driving' is not. I used to think Ash was a reckless driver in his ATC days, but being a once keen motor cycle riding enthusiast too, he had good wits and knew his local roads backwards. I doubt he'd chuck his vintage cars around so 'enthusiastically' as he did his large Citroen of the period (I was amazed how well the XM-Prestige he once had could be chucked around without complaint).

As Phil has said, the hobby aspect of vinyl collecting and playing can't be denied. The easier to read artwork on album sleeves, the physical handling of the media (something I suspect few on here understand, let alone embrace these days) and the interaction with the player itself. Nothing to do with the MUSIC, but a separate thing. I gave up on the quest for vinyl-nirvana thirty years ago, owned a fabulous deck-arm and cartridge for several years that made the LP12 'fruitbox' a laughing stock and tearfully sold it for peanuts in economically vulnerable times in the mid 90's. The relics I enjoy now give me huge pleasure and never seem to audibly get in the way. Vinyl's not as good as the master recording? I couldn't give a stuff in all honesty as the whole thing about 'High Fidelity Audio Systems' is an illusion, even with the finest recordings out there, all of which will have been manipulated from the millisecond the sound enters the microphone or directly injected into the mixing console.

I don't find audio people with nothing but an I-pad for a 'source' an issue and certainly nothing to be sarcastic about, but I find searching for music that way a disconcerting experience, when I can go to my CD or vinyl shelves and go straight to what I want to listen to. Horses for courses, even if the LP's live in the garage in Billy bookcases - they seem ok still after fourteen years storage there. Just leave us alone please - it's MUSIC that should bring us together, not record players or active speakers...
Speak the truth in humility to all people; Only then can you be a true man and free of your chains
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#88
I used to read John Bolster's road tests Dave and he'd describe putting cars into gentle drifts at 100mph so I assumed it was the norm. It was easy to drive flat out way back but now there are too many cars and too many slow witted and slow moving drivers. The roads seem quite dangerous to me.

Just coming back from France I witnessed some fool tearing down the M3 slip road onto the wrong side and another nearly caused a crash reversing down the slip road at Cirencester.

Old cars perform as poorly as record players if you push, but they're fine for pottering. Sadly you can't potter with a record player, so they're grim imo.
Some days it just isn’t worth the hassle of chewing through the restraints......
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#89
i do quite well pottering with my old vinyl players, but I take your point, accepting we both know how good master-grade material is in comparison. I have a thousand LP's and a couple of hundred 45rpm 12" singles I can't replace, so happy with my vinyl lot as it feeds the hobby need well, now I'm not playing with the gear every day. I can listen through the format, some here can't and won't and that's fine by me...
Speak the truth in humility to all people; Only then can you be a true man and free of your chains
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#90
I disagree Dave about the cover material having nothing to do with listening to the music.

I think often it embellishes with further information the nature of the album.
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#91
I'm guessing DSJR doesn't listen to classical music?
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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#92
(2017-05-21, 07:53:39)billt Wrote:
(2017-05-20, 21:07:06)dBerriff Wrote: Also free:

http://www.izotope.com/en/products/creat...vinyl.html

You may need to add some EQ for that elusive warmth, unless the Year setting gives you what you want. Perhaps some multiband compression to simulate the RIAA equalisation that renders the medium non-linear. Simple.

Er - the RIAA equalisation should be perfectly linear and have no effect on SQ if done accurately. It's a simple frequency response modification done pre pressing and reversed on replay in order to reduce the disc surface noise. The (unintentional) non-linearities are all produced in the mechanical system.

Er - what you say would be true in a noise and distortion free transfer function.
Just one of over 7 billion homo sapiens. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
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#93
@DSJR... Have I missed the point though?

Hi-Fi, short for 'high fidelity' ..... A quick Google gives a number of references all of which focus on the best and most accurate reproduction of music,... Rather than 'low fidelity' music for the masses.

On that basis, I think I make a pretty valid point.... When a phone is effectively now the highest fidelity source available... (Other than hiring a live band to play in your living room) ....why spend a small or large sum on an unecessary source that makes things sound 'lower fidelity'?

It's like tending a beautiful garden.... Then paying someone to put random weeds in, that you then spend ages trying to remove again.

Look, it's horses for courses, and it's OK to be nostalgic.... I didn't mean to offend, and if it gives you pleasure then that's great.
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#94
I'm with you True Blue.
Some days it just isn’t worth the hassle of chewing through the restraints......
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#95
Ive been listening to a lot of Satchmo recently
His 5 decade career produced many vibrant recordings of glorious music
ITunes has remastered many and found alternate takes etc for me,many are quite sublime
No record player in the world could provide a play list like that
Roger
The 10s excel at this sort of music
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